What part?

[dbc254]

Coming from a Wing Chun background, I need to know.  What exact part of the fist is used to contact an opponent? How is power generated?  Can't figure it out from pictures and videos alone......

[Art Kidwell]

Hello Dallas,
 
Yes, in silat the center knuckle is king, although ALL parts of the hand, including the back are used, depending upon the target and the angle of the deflecting punch/block.  I'm not exactly sure how to explain the fact that we do NOT block, per se.  Everything is hits.

The leopard punches utilize the first joint of the fingers as well. 

In the preying mantis and the twin dragon, the finger-tips, center knuckle and the fleshy part of the hand are used in many different angles and the fore-arms and shins are seamlessly employed for both striking and positioning purposes.  Reference: WuKung DVD 

In the internal arts the palm and the somewhat standard fist are used as well as both sides of the hands. Reference: IShing Po at www.kuntaosilat.org 

So, I guess the answer is somewhat complex since so many different systems and styles are included in only the first Seven Levels of American KunTao Silat, but it basically boils down to ALL parts of the hand, the forearms on all four sides, and the elbows from all directions, the shoulders, head, hips, knees, shins and big toe.  Naturally, at the higher levels (beyond Level Seven) people have the opportunity to specialize in various aspects of the myriad arts that comprise AKTS, and we are preparing a series of DVDs now that will aid in your training and application past Level Seven, but since there are only three people there at present, there appears to be some time for implementation.
 
The simple answer is anything and everything; but as you know from your previous training, certain things work better against "soft" targets and others against "hard" targets and other things work better for disruption of the internal bodily processes.

So, I think this is all a part of the process of inculcating the essence of AKTS into everything you do . . . i.e.; you learn from experience . . . which inevitably returns to the intrinsic value of training partners and hitting everything, constantly.

I think this thread is more appropriate in the Distance Learning section, so I'll move it. 

Peace,
Art 

[Sihing73]

Dallas C is that you?

Dave here, long time. Was wondering how you were. So are you into Kuntao now?

I think you'll find Kuntao will blend very well with Wing Chun.

PM me and I'll give you my contact info.

Dave

[Art Kidwell]

Woops!  Sorry, I forgot to address the power generation question. 

Rooting, whiplash, dropping, shaking, bouncing and rebounding power generation are all used; dependant, of course, upon what the target is and how the opponent is moving.  It is actually a very large topic and so much of it has to do with how you have trained and what is ingrained in your martial lifestyle.  I've seen Sigung do things that I can't even comprehend, let alone replicate; but there are certain things that I can do easily and others only by accident or good luck.   

So the question of "where the power comes from" is a really huge topic in this art; since there are SO many options and so many circumstances upon which the power generation may depend and how it may be applied. 

I don't mean to be trite, but there are really so many possibilities in American KunTao Silat that it would be difficult to isolate any one combination.  That is where the "martial lifestyle" continues to surface and the continual practice make perfect sense.  It is really too much to put into words; at least for me.  Perhaps some of our more erudite practitioners can place words on the process.   

Sigung Steve's art is way larger than the fundamental Seven Levels of American Kuntao Silat, so your question about power generation really exceeds the bounds of the DLP.  The answer I gave you about the hitters IS within the bounds of the program though.  And if you consider ONLY the rooting and the dropping and the whiplash and bouncing and rebounding aspects of power generation, it would fall within the parameters of the DLP as well.  Quite frankly, Guru Muda Aric may be best equipped to answer this question since he has made quite a study of power generation.

Peace,
Art

[Art Kidwell]

Hey Dallas,
I was just following up on Timothy Nichols suggestion that Golden Demonstration and Garden of the Gods be packaged as a pair and THERE . . . .  is the answer to your question.

Sigung Steve explains the hitters in some detail in the Golden Demonstration AND in the Introduction to Heartless Monkey knife and probably in some other places I don't recall.

It always comes back to the same answer, over and over again, watch the DVDs!  Most of the answers to all the questions I've heard asked are all answered in the DVDs.  I must admit, I have not watched some of the DVDs for years, so I have forgotten where things are.  Maybe we should place this thread in the Q&A section so that people who are currently watching can chime in with the answers some of the rest of us have forgotten.   

Peace,
Art 

[Art Kidwell]

  Dallas,
I have a question for you.

How far have you progressed in Wing Chun?

Peace,
Art

[Tim Nichols]

Re. Art's "watch the DVDs"

Exactly.  I've often though it would be useful to create a catalog of exactly what's on each DVD.  Every time I've tried to make such a catalog, I run into the same problem: I can note the things I've spotted, but that's all.  It's useful for "Oh, dang it, where was that clip..." moments, but not for answering future questions or generating further insight.  Truth is, I don't know what's on each DVD, because there's so much going on that I just don't see yet.  There's no substitute for just watching them...constantly...repeatedly...again...and again...and again.

You spend the time with the DVD that you'd spend with the teacher...

[Art Kidwell]

Funny, I've been thinking about that very thing.  I was going to note the counter on the DVD where that "what part of the hand" question was answered on a couple of the DVDs that I just re-watched, and then got caught up in the demonstration and forgot to note it.  It is also on the Introduction to HeartLess MonkeyKnife, which is another amazing video.

We could probably do that amongst ourselves though; as questions arise just note on what DVD at what counter number the answer is found.

I see what you mean about all the information coming at you.  I was watching the Weapons of KunTao Silat again yesterday and the discussion Chas was having with Trent about the djurus being adapted for the use of weapons was just astounding! 

Maybe as my movie-making skills develop I'll cut those pearls out and put them all together in some sort of a FAQ; but in the meanwhile, we could start another thread where the DVD and the counter number is related to various questions or favorite clips. . . maybe.  What thoughts?   

 

[Tim Nichols]

Art,

Definitely worth a thread.  For example, I'm presently digging round the dvds for everything on breath and internal aspects that I can find.  I'll be happy to post references when I'm done cataloging.  (Yet another reason that Garden of the Gods and the Golden Demo go well together.)

We should also give some thought to the best way to (ultimately, maybe a year or more down the road) pull it all together into a comprehensive table of contents/index -- could be one of the most helpful tools we have for the video generation.

One thing for sure, we should develop a set of categories to go with it, something like:
A - issue is discussed/explained verbally, but not demonstrated
B - example case, no explanation
C - both verbal discussion and demonstration

[Art Kidwell]

Oh yeah!

Now we're cookin' with gas!

I can see a plan developing. 

Breathing?  Check out the first time Sigung Steve does Djurus Satu on Djurus Satu 2000 with Sifu Richard Clear.  I think Richard had asked that very question, so Sigung did it with Chi Gung.  And on the IShing Po form, BaPak Willem shows the form with Chi Gung.

I'll get a new thread started, but I have to figure out what to call it.   

[Art Kidwell]

Coming from a Wing Chun background, I need to know.  What exact part of the fist is used to contact an opponent? How is power generated?  Can't figure it out from pictures and videos alone......

I take all these questions very seriously, since I'm kinda' the point-man by default, for the Distance Learning Program.

That said, tonight, I watched the Four DVDs of the Distance Learning Program and I can not figure out how anyone could miss the masses of hitters.  The entire set of DVDs shows in detail, sometimes even slow motion, the myriad hitters.  In particular, the personal training video, shows those details in some intricate detail.

I realize that Sigung Steve is so phenomenally fast that it could be impossible to see what he does . . . but he slowed down hours of video so that it could be seen.  Paladin Press nagged him about that when he made the "first of a series" of videos . . . "slow down" they said.  Well, everything is slowed down in Sigung's productions.

Perhaps I have presumed too much in watching the DLP videos, but it is more than obvious that all the questions you have asked have been MORE than answered in the DLP 4DVD set.

Maybe it is because I came to KTS as a Black Belt that these facts are obvious; but aren't MOST of the people who gravitate to this System high-level practitioners in other systems or styles?

If this is a question that many others ask, please help me craft an answer. 

Peace,
Art
If I'm in error here, if others are having the same questions, please do not hesitate to say so.

[Tim Nichols]

Art,

Seems to me the issue was laid out in the initial phrasing of the question: "Coming from a WC background, I need to know..."

I doubt he missed all the hitters, but he comes from a style that makes a big deal about certain knuckles being the points of contact in a straight punch.  I read it as a very limited question about what part of the front of the hand makes contact with the opponent in a straight punch.  We do straight punches, and if I were coming from a style that made a big, big deal about doing them "right," I'd have wanted to know the answer to that question too.

(As it happens, I come from a combatives background where we avoided fists at all and the preferred contact surfaces were palm and forearm, so my questions ran more to "why am I endangering the little bones in my hand when I could be hitting him with something a lot more substantial, like an ulna, my elbow, or, I dunno, a framing hammer?"  I recognize the value of the little hitters and I'm working up to it, conditioning and all, but deep down I still think hands are for holding weapons and big bones are for hitting people with...)

[Art Kidwell]

Oh  of course; silly me.  There will probably be a TKD guy coming along soon wondering what specific kick to use when setting up their legwork.    

It sounded like such a sincere question that I felt compelled to figure out where the program was lacking.

I do realize that we take a whole lot for granted in terms of expecting practitioners to understand the basics and that is probably the reason that AKTS is mostly populated by highly experienced practitioners from myriad other styles and systems.

Like Sigung Steve and even more so Uncle Bill, I really do not have much experience teaching beginners.  There is probably a weakness in the DistanceLearning Program right there! 

[Sihing73]

Hey now,

I also come from a Wing Chun background but I think I get the idea of using different weapons for different things.   I also think I am on the road to grasping some of the power generation ideas. As a matter of fact, after meeting Guru Derric last week, I have begun to incorporate some of the sinking into my Wing Chun. For me it is a little hard as I spent years and years learning to sit on my back leg. Still, I don't think it is some mystery.

FWIW I know Dallas and he is a good guy. I believe his question was and is sincere. He is just the type of guy who wants to, or needs to understand all the aspects of a technique in order to learn it. I have always said sometime you can overthink things, but then again that is just me.

Then again, I have been blessed with good instructors and even lived in one of my Sifus home for a while so I may have gotten exposed to a lot more than the average Wing Chunner. Then again, I never got into all the politics so I was always open to exploring other lineages and taking what worked for me. Sometimes I did not know why it worked, just that it did indeed work.

Also, Wing Chun has throws and joint locks within the system. Just that too many focus on the idea of punching, usually chain punching as though that is the be all end all. Wing chun also trains to use the shoulder to strike and other things as well. Though to be fair, most people would focus on the punch and perhaps a palm or two and think that was all there was to it.

Also, just to clarify, while I have had excellent instructors I make no claims to being any good. If my Wing Chun or my AKTS ends up being terrible, blame it on me not those who try to guide me.

To step off for a moment and make a correlation with Christianity, since there are so many who seem to be Christians in this art  , it is a lot like faith. We believe in the Bible and Christ not because of what we have seen, but by faith. In the same way, we accept that by training as those before us have done that it will eventually become an integral part of us and will work when needed. If that makes any sense at all.

[Art Kidwell]

Wow!    Now that places many pieces in their proper perspective.  Thank you Dave!

I've never participated in a Forum before, so I haven't had the experience of that "V8-moment" before.

I do, however, recall my transition from hard-style to AKTS and the amazement of how such incredible power could be generated from such a "weird" touch.  Maybe it is something we all go through in some form during our transition from what it was that we did to what it is we do NOW.

That is why I try not to take anyone's questions lightly.

When you put it in the perspective of Faith, it makes perfect sense.

Thanks!
Art